Is this the end of the whole sorry affair?
News that Luis Suarez has been found guilty of racially abusing Patrice Evra and handed an eight match ban has been met with a mixture of disbelief and anger by many associated with Liverpool football club.
“We look forward to the publication of the commission’s judgment. We will study the detailed reasons of the commission once they become available, but reserve our right to appeal or take any other course of action we feel appropriate with regards to this situation.
Again no real revelations here and dare I say a fairly measured and considered statement of both expectation and possible intent by the club. Unfortunately that’s where the ‘considered’ aspect of the statement ends…
“We find it extraordinary that Luis can be found guilty on the word of Patrice Evra alone when no-one else on the field of play – including Evra’s own Manchester United team-mates and all the match officials – heard the alleged conversation between the two players in a crowded Kop goalmouth while a corner kick was about to be taken.
Now correct me if I’m wrong but hasn’t Suarez admitted that he called Evra ‘negrito’ and United’s captain has made the allegation that he found it offensive. So what the point of arguing about the conversation is, quite frankly baffles me, surely everyone agrees what was said, the difference of opinion is why it was said. Was it meant as a racial slur or merely a reference based on what is culturally acceptable where Suarez comes from. The fact no one else heard it is completely irrelevant.
“The club takes extremely seriously the fight against all forms of discrimination and has a long and successful track record in work relating to anti-racist activity and social inclusion. We remain committed to this ideal and equality for all, irrespective of a person’s background.
I’d argue this isn’t the case when as soon as one of your players is found guilty of racism, you immediately release a statement not only backing him but also criticising his accuser.
It is after the first altercation between Mr Bethell and Mr Evra that Mr Bethell is alleged to have shouted at Mr Evra “I’ll ******* have you, you ******* 12 immigrant” – an allegation which Mr Bethell has consistently and vehemently denied.
39. The two witnesses who say they heard those words directed by Mr Bethell at Mr Evra are the Manchester United first team coach Mr Mike Phelan and the goalkeeping coach Mr Richard Hartis.
There is some confusion and inconsistency in their placing of the alleged racist insult. We should not have expected complete detailed accuracy and consistency in witnesses’ recollections of a fast-moving disorderly series of events. However, there are aspects of the evidence of Mr Phelan and Mr Hartis which raise serious questions about the reliability of their claims about the racist remark.
The later on in the report: Even if we disregard the fact that Mr Evra has never claimed to have heard such a remark on that day.
So that one goes out of the window- Evra never claimed to have heard any racist remarks nor did he accuse anyone of doing so. The fact that he admitted he didn’t hear any racist remarks was the reason it was dismissed, if Evra had lied and said he did hear them, he could have saved himself a ban or at least got Bethell punished, but he didn’t so he chose not to and rightly so.
As for the Finnan one. there’s a link here to the full story: EVRA/FINNAN but allow me to elucidate. Some deaf supporters watching on the television said they lip-read Finnan racially abusing Evra. Evra said he heard nothing and was ‘unaware of any racist abuse.’ Case closed.
“It is key to note that Patrice Evra himself in his written statement in this case said: “I don’t think that Luis Suarez is racist.” The FA in their opening remarks accepted that Luis Suarez was not racist.
Evra has admitted here that he does not believe Suarez is racist and Liverpool are now happy to quote a player only a paragraph earlier they noted: “certainly no more credible than his prior unfounded accusations.”
Is he credible when he says Suarez isn’t racist but not credible when he says he’s made a racist remark? How does it work? When is Evra allowed to be considered ‘credible’? Perhaps Liverpool football club could enlighten us all.
“Luis himself is of a mixed race family background as his grandfather was black. He has been personally involved since the 2010 World Cup in a charitable project which uses sport to encourage solidarity amongst people of different backgrounds with the central theme that the colour of a person’s skin does not matter; they can all play together as a team.
This is one of the more pointless parts of the statement as anyone knows that even a black person can be racist towards another black person. Having a black grandad doesn’t suddenly make you incapable of making a racist comment.
Calling a black person a ‘coconut’ is described as a racist term by the police yet it is used mainly as a slur from one black person to another or to another person in an ethnic minority. Here’s an example click HERE
Many black people -myself included- find the term n*gger abhorrent and would take offence if it was used towards us by even another black person. Other black people don’t mind it or even use it as a term of endearment so when it comes to ‘black on black’ insults -for want of a better description, it’s all depends on the individual and also the context.
From what we can assertain, Suarez called Evra a term, the United skipper found offensive and continued to do so on several occasions. That seems to be the point, not whether Suarez is one eighth black.
“He has played with black players and mixed with their families whilst with the Uruguay national side and was captain at Ajax Amsterdam of a team with a proud multi-cultural profile, many of whom became good friends.
The argument ‘Ive got black friends so how can I be racist’ is now seen as one of the more embarassing arguments you can put forward in defending yourself against a racial allegation. Here’s an example in The Thick of It click HERE around the 12.30 mark of how that argument is seen as a joke.
“It seems incredible to us that a player of mixed heritage should be accused and found guilty in the way he has based on the evidence presented. We do not recognise the way in which Luis Suarez has been characterised
A fairly reasonable argument and one I’m not going to discredit just because I’m a United fan, although I’ll again point to my previous comment of how a persons background doesn’t always prevent them from making a racist remark.
“It appears to us that the FA were determined to bring charges against Luis Suarez, even before interviewing him at the beginning of November. Nothing we have heard in the course of the hearing has changed our view that Luis Suarez is innocent of the charges brought against him and we will provide Luis with whatever support he now needs to clear his name.
If Liverpool thought the FA were determined to bring charges against Suarez before interviewing him, why not raise those concerns at the time? Liverpool would have been much more credible had they done so rather than after Suarez has been found guilty.
“We would also like to know when the FA intend to charge Patrice Evra with making abusive remarks to an opponent after he admitted himself in his evidence to insulting Luis Suarez in Spanish in the most objectionable of terms. Luis, to his credit, actually told the FA he had not heard the insult.”
Surely this is another example of Evra being honest, which negates the earlier ‘lack of credibility’ point. why admit what you said if even Suarez didn’t hear it? As for charging him, well when Evra initially made his accusation there were calls from the club for him to be charged if he Suarez was not found guilty, now it seems even though the Uruguayan has, they still want blood from Evra.
An example of the club’s stance during the investigation- via Kenny Daglish can he found HERE.
I know many Liverpool fans will be going ballistic and no doubt comment with insults aimed at both myself and Evra, while defending Suarez. All I’ll say is this, I read the statement and like many United fans was disappointed that even after he’s been found to be the victim of racial abuse, Patrice Evra is still being criticised, even by the club who’s player abused him and rather than rant and rave, I thought an examination and analysis of the statement was only right. If you don’t agree with my findings or arguments, or even if you do, I’d appreciate your thoughts.
Firstly the unconfirmed point about the word being Negrito is based around the dialogue after the refs warning and the hand slapped away, and the Liverpool statement clearly states the goal mouth incident being the issue, so even if it was a reliable source it isnt the moment in question. The statement also seems to imply that this is a singular issue that the FA have charged Suarez with, now noting that Evra claimed it was ten times does potentially smack of over exaggeration therefor makes it a reasonable suggestion he may be a poor source, when judged in isolation. Also it suggests that Evra’s word is the only evidence, yet Evra’s initial statements suggested he knew for a fact that there was a multitude of video or pictorial evidence which also doesn’t reflect well on his truthfully objectivity if proved to be the case. And I second the point from above. Suarez may be proved to have said something he shouldn’t and may well regret, but in the heat of the moment and subject to language barriers and cultural nuances one descriptive word used badly should not subject a person to the ire of those that condem true racism rightly so, yet I’m afraid it will. Racism is the deliberate and vindictive persecution of a race of people resulting in denying that person the equal rights they deserve or singling them out for violence due to the color of their skin alone, not adding a miss judged descriptive tag line, allegedly 🙂
A Liverpool fan remaining objective and neutral (I hope, judge me how you will)
another Manutd fan trying to try our player again!
but if we go by the law, then I agree that Suarez has to be punished – but I am surprised at the 8 game ban!
while the FA is not punishing Suarez for being racist they are punishing for using racist remarks – which he even admitted, so no use there!
its just like someone stealing for the first time, or does not have a history of being a robber, but caught – by law we have to punish his act, not cos he is not a robber at heart, but because he committed the act and even admitted that he did, even though back home stealing is normal!
c’mon! let focus on this cos it is not abt pool and mancs but about a larger social issue – per wise our kids are going to learn it is fine.
I am white btw, with many Asian and black friends, who would hate to admit it, but even as they are Liverpool supporters, face this dilemma!
we all hate to have our best player off but I think the FA are using hi profile as yardstick to prove a point, unfortunately, or fortunately, it happened to be us! the shite thing is that he has also got to face a obscene gesture charge! man! this could be ugly for our season!!!!
Liverpool fan here and I have to say this article is pretty fair. Two things I’d note are that although Evra didn’t make the claims in the Chelsea case, the report judged his testimony to be exaggerated and unreliable. I’m guessing this is what the unfounded thing relates to but it is pretty clumsily done, like the whole response to be honest. Secondly, the fact that only Evra and Suarez heard the conversation is very important depending how much weight is put on how the words were delivered and intended.
I expected the club to back the player, it makes sense. If they believe he didn’t do it, they’ve got to keep going along this line. I’ve heard some say that ‘even after the guilty verdict they wont accept he is racist’, but it is not as if they (Liverpool) would have heard all the evidence, defended Suarez throughout and then went ‘oh if they say he is guilty, he must be!’. That wouldn’t make sense.
The response they have come out with though will not help anyone. The club looks bad and this is no way to be diplomatic. The fact they call Evra into question so openly is distasteful (unless his testimony was particularly dubious or hyperbolic etc., something we can’t know yet at least) and sends the wrong message.
The way I see it is that no player is in the wrong here, provided the report that will be released doesn’t contain some sort of incontrovertible evidence of racist intent from Suarez. If they have somehow proved that, fair enough, the ban is justified. It seems this case hinges on the intention of what Suarez said since it has been proven time and again that the kind of language used by Suarez can be neutral in his culture. I just don’t see how they could have proven, beyond reasonable doubt, that he intended to offend Evra and bring up his race pejoratively.
As for Evra, if I heard what Suarez said, without understanding cultural nuance, I might think it racist, so I have nothing against Evra for pursuing this. Also, of course, the report may contain details which vindicate Evra yet further but the prevailing impression so far (from journos and that statement, silly as it is) is that no such thing exists. I do agree though with the idea that Evra saying ‘get your hands off me you South American’ is in the same ballpark as racism (sectarianism is probably most accurate) and seems more clearly pejorative in context.
Final point:
Many will say this, but this (knowing what we know at this time) feels like the FA making an example of Suarez and it will be VERY interesting to see their treatment of John Terry.
P.S.
The long-term effects of this are worrying. Firstly Suarez will be branded a racist and probably hounded out of the country (bad provided he is victim of politics or poor judgement rather than made culpable for his own misdeeds in which case, he’ll have made his bed…). I know in Uruguay they are already going mad over this.
The second problem is that this will lead to a serious ramping up of tensions between United fans and Liverpool fans which is a great shame. This case is basically going to be a proxy war which will spill over, in some form or other, to a real war. I’m going to leave this comment and check on replies tomorrow and I’m sure it’ll be ugly (the internet tends to bring out the worst of both sets of fans because of the insidious anonymity) but know that a lot of Liverpool fans don’t agree with this statement and a lot of the people objecting to this ruling do so because the case seems unsound (I obviously acknowledge there are many who just wanted Suarez to get off regardless of guilt, unfortunately).
Either way, I worry this is going to get worse before it gets better. The one bright side is that even if repealed, I think even just the trauma (and eventually Terry, when he faces his judgement) of this process will help stamp out racism between professionals.
First off, whether Suarez said “Negro” or “Negrito”, in Hispanic culture in general, it can be used as a slang for your friends like “homie” or “bro”; but it can also be used as a derogatory term like “n**ger”…it’s all about context and who you’re saying it to.
I’m Cuban, and many Cubans/PuertoRicans/Dominicans/Etc, use the term “Negro” with our friends, ad the person doesn’t even have to be black. But for instance, my grandfather is VERY racist towards African-Americans or any type of African. He uses the term “Negro” as well, but in an angrily way with malice in his voice, “Mira, eso negro de mierda!” So there IS some truth to what Suarez is saying, but like the author said, and like any Hispanic knows, you don’t use the term “Negro” or “Negrito” in an angry way towards a black person you aren’t close to…especially in a heated argument in a match between the biggest rivals in English Football.
Another point I’ve made before is that in French, the same term “Negro” and similarly “Negre” means black but is also used as a way to say “n**ger”. So I don’t find it too hard to see how Evra, being a French black man, could be in a heated argument with a rival player and hear Suarez REPEATEDLY saying “Negro” or “Negrito” towards him and take it as offensive racial abuse.
It’s all about context and your cultural differences. Either way, Suarez should be smart enough to know that you can’t use your home terms so freely when you’re so far away from home. It’s the same way Sepp Blatter gets himself into so much trouble. If you just keep your mouth shut, nothing would happen!!
You said it! The whole logic that “negrito” can never be pejoritive is ridiculous. I’d like to see an LFC supporter repeatedly say “negrito is always an affectionate term without exception” while watching footage from the game between those two.
For the record, yes I am a man utd supporter. my views are:
Suarez clearly meant to insult Evra, simply watching the exchanges with an open mind tells you that.
in today’s ” politically correct” world Suarez is guilty as charged. blame generation y for that.
I guess I would have been personally suspended forever for upsetting the opposition.
Get over it Patrice be a man and make the next tackle hurt Suarez, be a man already !
Will the FA ban Suarez further if he fails in his appeal with any valid ground?
Im no admirer of our jobs for the boys FA who i do agree have double standards i use Ch4s investigation into drug abuse in football as a case in point . However Liverpool and Suarez have 14 days to appeal if there case is strong enough ,what is their worry ?
To me having watched the game it was obvious Evra was being wound up by Suarez and it was being done very cutley .Interesting, Liverpool try to infer Evra is not reliable .Whilst St Suarezs previous is played down !
Firstly, lets clear up what Gurvir ask, “How can the FA charge Suarez with being a Racist, when Evra believes him not to be one?”.
The FA did not charge him with being a Racist, they charged him with using racial abuse. In other words he used a term that he knew Evra would find offensive, not that he necessarily believes it or it is part of his normal vocabulary, just that he chose to say something that he knew would cause maximum offence to Evra.
Also, the argument that “Negrito” is just a word to describe black people, or even in the wider context calling a black person black could not be considered an insult because they are actually black, is again a nonsense argument. The word was used as an insult, it indicates that the person using the word considers the target to be less than them because of the colour of their skin. Just as calling someone a “Ginger twat” is also offensive because you are using the word Ginger as part of the insult.
Personally, I hope Evra takes legal action against Liverpool FC. Their statement is libellous, but not unexpected. How could they response in any other way after the statements they have made since this surfaced. In particular Dalglish’s statement that “Suarez is a man of the utmost integrity” is laughable given his tendency to dive. (Just to anticipate any advance replies – yes Nani etc also dive but United do not deny it and then say they are of the utmost integrity).
How liverpool have reacted since the incident has been a disgrace, they ignored the FA’s request not to issue any statements by continually talking about it, even calling for Evra to receive a heavy punishment when Suarez was found innocent. Now that it has gone the other way, they call into question the integrity of the panel making the decision. It will be interesting to see the FA’s reaction to that.
F A had better have fantastic evidence -otherwise the implications of this verdict will haunt them.
you sir are a true muppet, now effoff, none of those overpaid lazy arse black players can even understand what it is to be rascist…and i don’t expect you too know either.My black brothers and sisters in South Africa will tell you what exactly rascism is about…all you guys only want to do is play the race card.
Is that you nick griffin? Or should I say..Kenny Daglish?
Mario you are a horrible bigoted little man, typical lfc fan.